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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Sept 12, 2022 12:53:12 GMT
And he saids it while dressed like this too, which makes it really stand out
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Post by smittysgelato on Sept 12, 2022 21:03:02 GMT
That's not a face you can argue with.
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Post by jppiper on Sept 12, 2022 21:44:45 GMT
I think a lot of people take issue with the fact that Anakin makes a mess of things before fulfilling the prophecy, so they're right there with Mace Windu. Shouldn't be a Surprise for those that watched the OT |
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Post by smittysgelato on Sept 12, 2022 23:44:27 GMT
I think a lot of people take issue with the fact that Anakin makes a mess of things before fulfilling the prophecy, so they're right there with Mace Windu. Shouldn't be a Surprise for those that watched the OT There was no mention of the prophecy in the OT. For a lot of OT purists, Vader is only saving his son's life. |
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Post by jppiper on Sept 13, 2022 2:21:08 GMT
Shouldn't be a Surprise for those that watched the OT There was no mention of the prophecy in the OT. For a lot of OT purists, Vader is only saving his son's life. And Many think the prophecy was stupid and unnecessary (not me) |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Sept 13, 2022 13:34:48 GMT
Shouldn't be a Surprise for those that watched the OT There was no mention of the prophecy in the OT. For a lot of OT purists, Vader is only saving his son's life.
Some people also interpret Jar Jar Binks to be the real Sith Lord. It doesn't mean they're correct.
There's a lot of things Lucas couldn't fit into the OT or weren't suitable for that part of the timeline. He achieved it in the PT.
I notice Hayden Christensen still has the longish hair at the Toronto film festival. He's almost certainly been doing Anakin again.
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Post by smittysgelato on Sept 14, 2022 2:45:57 GMT
If Jar Jar is a Sith Lord, then I'm a super successful ladies' man.
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Post by maychild on Sept 15, 2022 9:04:48 GMT
Yes, but other people's opinions are not mine and, for me, episode 4 of OWK alone is proof that they didn't have enough material for six episodes. They were beginning to repeat storylines even within just six episodes... Yep -- not to mention, in that very episode you mention, ripping off a recent Star Wars video game, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order. Don't get me wrong, I kinda like it when worlds collide, but they weren't very subtle about it, only adding even more to the padded-out, repetitious feel of the series at that point. Moreover, to address the notion of six episodes not being long enough: There's a difference between length and depth. If an undertaking is lacking in the latter, or is just poorly constructed in general, then even a short film or television series can end up feeling too long, inelegant, tedious; and redundant. Solid storytelling consists in making the most out of one's chosen format. George Lucas himself told the story of Star Wars -- AKA The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker -- in only six movies, and he did it with such vision and brilliance that we are all changed because of it. The Obi-Wan series was obviously trying to mirror and pay tribute to that achievement a little bit, but in a relatively clunky and whimpering way. George really maxed out in all areas. The Obi-Wan series, in my opinion, did not. While television often falls down compared to cinema, it offers some advantages, such as being able to create a strong sense of parasocial sympathy and identification in the viewer, by allowing for the development of characters and certain themes and tropes at great length, salted with a visionary or semi-visionary quality to the setting and the storytelling. Here, I certainly think of the various installments of Star Trek (albeit not so much the new shows), which all had their limitations and their quirks, but were very capably pulled off all the same. There was an appealing domesticity to the various Star Trek television shows, yet also an undeniable otherworldiness due to the fantastic sci-fi setting. And the writing, for the most part, was robust. Throw on any season of any Star Trek show, pre-2000s, and I guarantee you will run into a compelling episode or two; with even the drabber, safer ones all offering something. Political intrigue, sci-fi mystery, comedy, romance, a psychological conundrum -- it's all there. Obi-Wan Kenobi, in its best moments, might have achieved an operatic grace, and even a touch of psychological depth, but the writing lacked the intelligence, wit, and sparkle of Star Trek at its best, and there weren't really any memorable, well-defined characters outside of Obi-Wan, Vader, and maybe Leia. What's more, all those characters owe their existence and fascination to George Lucas, not to any heroic struggle or insight on the part of the series creators. It's kinda crass how GL still gets bashed for Jar Jar, Watto, and the Neimoidians being alleged "racist stereotypes" (*vomits*), but there isn't one new character of their merit or distinction in the Obi-Wan series -- in any Disney Star Wars project, really. Thus, in a way, Star Wars isn't really Star Wars anymore. I had high hopes for the series, and I liked the first two episodes: they showed promise. It was nice to see Hayden and Ewan together onscreen again, plus they brought back most of the actors in the prequels to reprise their roles. But the subsequent episodes failed to live up to the aforementioned promise. Instead they got, as Cryogenic pointed out, long, tedious, and redundant. Was there any particular reason to feature so many lightsaber duels between Anakin/Vader and Kenobi, or were those scenes just filler? I will give the series credit for featuring some fine acting, but the writing and plot were lackadaisical as well as redundant. As I understand it, the show's creators decided to rescind their claims about the series ending with this season: they rewrote the finale in such a way that it they can do a second season. I really don't think that's a good idea. They ran out of story after just a few episodes, and the rest was filler. Season 2 would likely be more filler, with the actors increasingly phoning in their performances. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 1, 2022 21:28:12 GMT
I was initially quite critical of the later episodes of the series, but after the dour self-seriousness of Andor, which I dropped for now (I will watch the full season later), something about Obi-Wan called me back to it. It had something special about it, a feeling, thanks in large part to John Williams' fantastic main theme. It had a rip-roaring sense of adventure and a certain endearing hokeyness that fits Star Wars. Now on my second watch I'm finding myself enjoying it a lot more. I think expectations were impossibly high, similar to the prequels. It had been 17 years since RotS, which is even longer than the 16 years between the OT and the PT. It's like poetry, it rhymes. A critical reappraisal may be in order for Obi-Wan, much like the one the prequels have gone through recently. I think Obi-Wan has earned its place in the saga, and I hope there is a second season that is even better.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 2, 2022 15:32:47 GMT
Yes, but other people's opinions are not mine and, for me, episode 4 of OWK alone is proof that they didn't have enough material for six episodes. They were beginning to repeat storylines even within just six episodes... Yep -- not to mention, in that very episode you mention, ripping off a recent Star Wars video game, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order. Don't get me wrong, I kinda like it when worlds collide, but they weren't very subtle about it, only adding even more to the padded-out, repetitious feel of the series at that point. Moreover, to address the notion of six episodes not being long enough: There's a difference between length and depth. If an undertaking is lacking in the latter, or is just poorly constructed in general, then even a short film or television series can end up feeling too long, inelegant, tedious; and redundant. Solid storytelling consists in making the most out of one's chosen format. George Lucas himself told the story of Star Wars -- AKA The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker -- in only six movies, and he did it with such vision and brilliance that we are all changed because of it. The Obi-Wan series was obviously trying to mirror and pay tribute to that achievement a little bit, but in a relatively clunky and whimpering way. George really maxed out in all areas. The Obi-Wan series, in my opinion, did not. While television often falls down compared to cinema, it offers some advantages, such as being able to create a strong sense of parasocial sympathy and identification in the viewer, by allowing for the development of characters and certain themes and tropes at great length, salted with a visionary or semi-visionary quality to the setting and the storytelling. Here, I certainly think of the various installments of Star Trek (albeit not so much the new shows), which all had their limitations and their quirks, but were very capably pulled off all the same. There was an appealing domesticity to the various Star Trek television shows, yet also an undeniable otherworldiness due to the fantastic sci-fi setting. And the writing, for the most part, was robust. Throw on any season of any Star Trek show, pre-2000s, and I guarantee you will run into a compelling episode or two; with even the drabber, safer ones all offering something. Political intrigue, sci-fi mystery, comedy, romance, a psychological conundrum -- it's all there. Obi-Wan Kenobi, in its best moments, might have achieved an operatic grace, and even a touch of psychological depth, but the writing lacked the intelligence, wit, and sparkle of Star Trek at its best, and there weren't really any memorable, well-defined characters outside of Obi-Wan, Vader, and maybe Leia. What's more, all those characters owe their existence and fascination to George Lucas, not to any heroic struggle or insight on the part of the series creators. It's kinda crass how GL still gets bashed for Jar Jar, Watto, and the Neimoidians being alleged "racist stereotypes" (*vomits*), but there isn't one new character of their merit or distinction in the Obi-Wan series -- in any Disney Star Wars project, really. Thus, in a way, Star Wars isn't really Star Wars anymore. I realized that a big part of why I found the series lacking initially was because of the one episode a week serial format. Obi-Wan was originally meant to be a movie, and I think it would have been much more successful viewed like that. I have never been a big fan of serials, because the storytelling gets fragmented and drawn out. A film is an experience you can have in one sitting, which is why I find it superior. A smart move would have been to release all episodes at once, like some Netflix shows do. I think that way people could have taken the entirety of the story in without having to wait a week for the next episode and building expectations for more than it can deliver. Now watching it a second time all at once, you can better apprecite the character arcs of Reva and Obi-Wan. Originally I found Reva annoying and pointless, but her story is satisfying and compelling. I also nitpicked about Obi-Wan not feeling like himself, but focusing more on the overall arc and especially the last episode, you get why he was like that and how he changed back. The overall journey is much richer. I do think the series achieved a certain operatic grace, perhaps played in a different tune than Lucas' work, but still one that is worthwhile. And the psychological depth really comes out to focus when you watch it all in one sitting. I take the same approach to this series as what Lucas said about his films: It's one story, told in six parts. And to get the full story, you must watch it all the way through from episode 1 to episode 6. Only then is the story of how Obi-Wan rediscovered his faith clear to see. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 2, 2022 17:40:58 GMT
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 2, 2022 19:03:37 GMT
I agree that a movie is a superior experience because you get the whole story in one sitting. That is exactly why, once the series was over, I rewatched the whole thing. Even then it didn't do it for me, though.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 2, 2022 19:18:06 GMT
I agree that a movie is a superior experience because you get the whole story in one sitting. That is exactly why, once the series was over, I rewatched the whole thing. Even then it didn't do it for me, though. For me watching the series again in full was like taking a step into a larger world. Or maybe something else changed, I don't know. I think my sky-high expectations hampered my enjoyment of it on a week to week basis where I always expected the greatest thing ever to release next week. And I do admit that my expectations of the series were pretty strongly subverted, because I expected it to focus more on Luke rather than Leia. But now with some distance to the overblown hype, I could enjoy the series a lot better for what it is. I think Chow showed a great sensitivity to the characters of Obi, Vader and Reva, and I could appreciate all the character work and subtle touches more this go around. Shame that it still didn't do it for you. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Nov 3, 2022 4:06:12 GMT
I think you have to just look at it for what it is. A TV show, by Disney. In that respect, it really was magic.
I only really started to hate it once I put it my "viewing order". But I guess, you just can't mix these things.
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 3, 2022 19:43:22 GMT
The publicity tour justified this series' existence all on its own.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 3, 2022 20:29:56 GMT
I think you have to just look at it for what it is. A TV show, by Disney. In that respect, it really was magic. I only really started to hate it once I put it my "viewing order". But I guess, you just can't mix these things. When the series was coming out, I commented on some of the production values that this is firmly a show, not a movie. I wouldn't call anything in the series cheap looking, but it has a certain feel that it isn't quite as "prestige" as Mandalorian or Andor, which I have begun to dig actually. Star Wars was modeled after those hokey saturday matinee serials, so I guess it was its destiny to turn into one. You don't think the series works with the rest of the saga? I'm finding it enhances ANH quite nicely. Not that it needed any enhancing but it's a nice bonus. The publicity tour justified this series' existence all on its own. The publicity tour was fun just to see Ewan and especially Hayden again, but I think it was slightly overblown and may have contributed to too high expectations. There was some deception with the big deal they made out of Hayden being in the Vader suit, when it was really only him in certain scenes. They also paraded Hayden around so much I thought he would appear as Anakin more in the series. The initial promotional art they showed of Obi vs. Vader had them fighting on Mustafar, which did not happen, so I was let down by that as well. I think this show would have benefited from lesser publicity and more tempered expectations like Andor. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 5, 2022 19:06:34 GMT
This series would have been better off called "Star Wars: Ben Kenobi" rather than Obi-Wan, because Obi really isn't himself for the majority of the series. Obviously Obi-Wan is the far more recognized and marketable name, so the choice is obvious. But he isn't the fearless Jedi Knight we have come to know him as from the films, especially the prequels. Chow said in the making of documentary that they wanted to focus on the man instead of the Jedi. And by this point in the timeline, Ben is a broken man. The best contrast is comparing the moment when he jumps down to face Grievous in RotS all by himself, quipping "Hello there" with a smile, with the moment in the series when his employer bullies one of his workers and Ben totally dejectedly watches by with no spark of trying to help the man. Ben is almost completely a different personality, a split that is almost as stark as Anakin/Vader. You could think that Obi and Ani, the former "brothers", formed a dyad in the Force, and once Anakin succumbed to Vader, at the same time Obi-Wan ceased to exist and became Ben, a husk of a man. The moment we see Ben at his absolute lowest, when he is totally stripped of all his Jedi trappings, is when in episode 4 we find him undressed in a bacta tank. This man does not resemble the Obi-Wan we know. He is literally and figuratively more naked than we have ever witnessed him before. He is cut off from the Force, and from himself. It is the reminder of his duty to Anakin and Padmé's children that brings Obi-Wan back, and lends him the power to defeat Vader. It's fitting that when Obi-Wan has returned, and he meets Luke face to face for the first time, he says the line "Hello there." He is saying it as much to himself as he is to Luke. I think this series really works as an extended interlude between the two trilogies, that bridges the gap between Obi-Wan in RotS and Ben in ANH.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 6, 2022 1:41:05 GMT
The moments when Obi-Wan yells "NO!" as both Qui-Gon and Tala die. Both times he's separated from them by a door.   I appreciate what you're saying, Seeker of the Whills , and you are always a thoughtful conversationalist and Saga expositor, but the above frames really highlight the gulf in production quality and storytelling values for me. The TPM frame is rich in Technicolor goodness, while the still from the "Obi-Wan" series is a dark, muggy mess. Ewan's acting is also more convincing in the TPM still. His mouth is wide open in shock, his brow is creased, and his neck muscles are clenched -- a powerful expression of disbelief and pain. The lighting is also far superior on his eyes. Even the framing is better. Ewan/Obi-Wan is too tightly composed in the "Obi-Wan" series still (the frame is very boxy). Even the red laser gate beam adds to Ewan's shocked/enraged appearance in the TPM still. Everything about the frame capture from "Obi-Wan" is so drab and TV-ish by comparison. It is also more appropriate to see Obi-Wan reacting the way he does in the TPM frame. In a sense, he caused Qui-Gon's death by fighting Darth Maul too aggressively and eagerly (another way that GL expresses the "phantom menace" of the Dark Side). This leads to his and Qui-Gon's separation; which, in turn, leads to Maul being able to isolate Qui-Gon and chop him down. All Obi-Wan can do is watch helplessly as it happens behind the laser gate. By contrast, in "Obi-Wan", Tala -- a person he has known all of three days (?) -- is randomly shot down as Obi-Wan and the other rebels are retreating through the base. In theory, Obi-Wan could have assisted her and not let her fall behind; and, even after he sees her fatally wounded, he could have Force-pushed the closing door back open and ran to her, regardless of her beckoning him away. It just doesn't have the same impact as the situation depicted in TPM. Then there's the fact that Obi-Wan's reaction in TPM to Qui-Gon getting stabbed is accentuated tremendously by John Williams' fantastic, top-drawer score. We don't have anything of the like in the "Obi-Wan" series. Also, honestly, it makes more sense for Obi-Wan to react with shock and horror in TPM, as he's not only witnessing his Jedi Master falling to the ground with nothing he can do about it, but he's much younger and still rather "green". He hasn't yet become a Jedi Knight himself, much less a Jedi Master. It makes sense that he would barely be able to contain his emotions when confronted with something so sudden and brutal. After all, the whole narrative of the prequels, in terms of the Obi-Wan/Anakin dynamic, is about how Obi-Wan tries to honour a promise he makes to his dying Master, while repeatedly falling short. He owes a "life debt" to Qui-Gon and he is determined, against the odds, to see it through when he agrees to train Anakin. Is there anything of the like driving Obi-Wan after he sees Tala struck down? Maybe they were trying to make his pardoning of Reva on Tatooine more profound (or even in his burst of anger toward Vader with the rocks), but I just don't feel much weight to this particular loss in Obi-Wan's life. His losing Qui-Gon was a whole different ballgame. I appreciate all the prequel callbacks in the "Obi-Wan" series, but I'm still left with the feeling that the prequels did it first and better. Certain Star Wars motifs are very hard to get away with unless you're George Lucas (because George knows how to do it right). In moments like the above, there is a forced, try-hard quality: a sense of living on past glories to significantly diminished effect. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 6, 2022 14:56:52 GMT
The moments when Obi-Wan yells "NO!" as both Qui-Gon and Tala die. Both times he's separated from them by a door. I appreciate what you're saying, Seeker of the Whills , and you are always a thoughtful conversationalist and Saga expositor, but the above frames really highlight the gulf in production quality and storytelling values for me. The TPM frame is rich in Technicolor goodness, while the still from the "Obi-Wan" series is a dark, muggy mess. Ewan's acting is also more convincing in the TPM still. His mouth is wide open in shock, his brow is creased, and his neck muscles are clenched -- a powerful expression of disbelief and pain. The lighting is also far superior on his eyes. Even the framing is better. Ewan/Obi-Wan is too tightly composed in the "Obi-Wan" series still (the frame is very boxy). Even the red laser gate beam adds to Ewan's shocked/enraged appearance in the TPM still. Everything about the frame capture from "Obi-Wan" is so drab and TV-ish by comparison. It is also more appropriate to see Obi-Wan reacting the way he does in the TPM frame. In a sense, he caused Qui-Gon's death by fighting Darth Maul too aggressively and eagerly (another way that GL expresses the "phantom menace" of the Dark Side). This leads to his and Qui-Gon's separation; which, in turn, leads to Maul being able to isolate Qui-Gon and chop him down. All Obi-Wan can do is watch helplessly as it happens behind the laser gate. By contrast, in "Obi-Wan", Tala -- a person he has known all of three days (?) -- is randomly shot down as Obi-Wan and the other rebels are retreating through the base. In theory, Obi-Wan could have assisted her and not let her fall behind; and, even after he sees her fatally wounded, he could have Force-pushed the closing door back open and ran to her, regardless of her beckoning him away. It just doesn't have the same impact as the situation depicted in TPM. Then there's the fact that Obi-Wan's reaction in TPM to Qui-Gon getting stabbed is accentuated tremendously by John Williams' fantastic, top-drawer score. We don't have anything of the like in the "Obi-Wan" series. Also, honestly, it makes more sense for Obi-Wan to react with shock and horror in TPM, as he's not only witnessing his Jedi Master falling to the ground with nothing he can do about it, but he's much younger and still rather "green". He hasn't yet become a Jedi Knight himself, much less a Jedi Master. It makes sense that he would barely be able to contain his emotions when confronted with something so sudden and brutal. After all, the whole narrative of the prequels, in terms of the Obi-Wan/Anakin dynamic, is about how Obi-Wan tries to honour a promise he makes to his dying Master, while repeatedly falling short. He owes a "life debt" to Qui-Gon and he is determined, against the odds, to see it through when he agrees to train Anakin. Is there anything of the like driving Obi-Wan after he sees Tala struck down? Maybe they were trying to make his pardoning of Reva on Tatooine more profound (or even in his burst of anger toward Vader with the rocks), but I just don't feel much weight to this particular loss in Obi-Wan's life. His losing Qui-Gon was a whole different ballgame. I appreciate all the prequel callbacks in the "Obi-Wan" series, but I'm still left with the feeling that the prequels did it first and better. Certain Star Wars motifs are very hard to get away with unless you're George Lucas (because George knows how to do it right). In moments like the above, there is a forced, try-hard quality: a sense of living on past glories to significantly diminished effect. I totally understand your qualms with the series, because I used to share them and still do to some extent. You're right that it doesn't come close to matching Lucas' saga in sophistication of storytelling or sheer beauty, but like Stampid said, taken as a TV show, I think it succeeds pretty well. Chow herself says that she isn't Lucas in the making of documentary. I think of the series as an interlude that gives some breathing room between the two trilogies. The series does have TV quality production values, so it can't really hold a candle to the films in that regard, but I think that fits the series. The first episode begins with an expertly edited recap of the mythic heights of the prequels, followed by a gorgeously rendered Order 66 scene from Reva's point of view that acts as a mediator between the prequels and the series proper. When we are dropped on Tatooine 10 years later, it's a different world. The prequels are but a dream by this point, or a nightmare in Obi-Wan's case. You're of course right that Qui-Gon's death is far more impactful and important than Tala's. Qui-Gon's death is maybe the single most important event that kicks off the chain of events that lead to Anakin turning into Vader. But I don't think Tala and her death are as unimportant as they may seem on the face of it. The series makes the point that Obi-Wan is almost completely alone, with just an eopie for a friend. Tala is the first friend he makes, besides Leia, and like Leia, I think Tala reminds Obi-Wan of the other "feminine forces" he has had in his life, namely Padmé and Satine. She helps him to reconnect with people and consequently himself. Obi-Wan had a hard time trusting people and getting close to them after he lost everything and everyone in RotS. So now that he had finally found someone new, the loss of her reminded him of all the people in his life that had died, thus making the death of a person he had only known for a couple of days that much harder. Or that's at least how I interpret it. "Obi-Wan Kenobi" the series is about what it means to be a Jedi, and two major facets of that are showing mercy and self-sacrifice. Haja shows mercy to Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan shows mercy to Vader, and Reva shows mercy to Luke. All three characters are "Jedi", and become more Jedi-like through their acts of mercy, but in different ways. Haja is the fake Jedi, but comes to embody the values of a true Jedi by assisting Obi-Wan and Leia. Obi-Wan himself gets his mojo back in the fight with Vader, and by sparing him despite defeating him, he rises above and reclaims his Jedi mantle. And Reva does the same by reconnecting with her younger self, the Jedi padawan, forsaking her role as an Inquisitor. I see a parallel now with Tala and Obi-Wan's death. Maybe Tala's sacrifice inspired Obi-Wan to later do the same. In both instances they stall the Imperials so the other rebels can flee. Tala is not a Jedi, but she is part of the network of rebels helping the Jedi. Her last words to Obi-Wan are "May the Force be with you", something we only hear the Jedi say in the prequels, but by the time of the OT, the rebels have adopted the saying. I see "Obi-Wan" as a bridge that showcases how different people come to embody the values of the Jedi of old. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 24, 2022 14:10:21 GMT
Cool fan trailer for the series.
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I mean I don't hate the series or anything, but it's been just mediocre in my opinion.
