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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 15, 2019 5:46:00 GMT
But I think it sounds funny. It's not a good title without it. Ever since Taylor Swift released "Haters going to hate, hate, hate", I've been left with comical, cartoon villain connotations for that word. It's like a Halloween costume people dress up in, but for Twitter. It doesn't strike fear me into in the way "bigot" does. So I like "hater" in your title because it feels like your playing cheeky with the reviewer - that you're not there to blow off steam, but to educate and have fun. Have you read his reviews of TPM and ROTS? You might want to do so to get a better understanding of Mr. Hater's psyche and his pet hates. I suppose. The problem is: People look at words differently. And the term "hater" has been used so abundantly in the online Star Wars community, with a specific set of connotations, that I still feel like I ought to avoid using it. Nevertheless, I may give in and go with it. Some kind of mocking undercarriage would be good to have in the title. They have other prequel reviews? I don't even want to look right now. I don't feel I need to read them to get a better grip on their psyche or their pet hates. Their opinion is already "revealed" in their AOTC hit-piece. Perhaps I'll read their other ones in a day or two -- once I'm finished with my response. I don't want to be overly inspired to craft more withering putdowns! I should probably continue to pretend they're just picking the worst prequel (or what they implicitly consider to be the worst) and using it to spill their feelings about all three. As you've divined, it's a mixture of the two. Perhaps my response has a split personality (which would be somewhat appropriate for Episode II -- think Threepio in the arena), but in order to make it a rebuttal with some gravity, I naturally had to lean a little on the academic side of things, crafting what amounts to advocating for the merits of the film, and not simply hitting back at the reviewer for their compressed sneering. That said, my response is structured in a linear fashion, wherein the basic flow of it is determined entirely by the order of criticisms and sentences in the original review. I literally respond to every snippet, one line or sentence-block at a time (just as Jim Raynor, incidentally, responds to the RLM TPM review in his own rebuttal). I guess responding in this fashion was an excuse to write a thesis, but one that comports exactly with the train-track of the specific critique I'm delivering a rebuke of. Perhaps you could call it an (annotated) thesis-rebuttal. I did? I thought there was a lot of fat/padding there. But based on your recommendation, I'll consider it! I was actually going to have both an intro and an outro to my response, but some days ago, I decided to scrap the outro, because I thought I was able to bring my response to a succinct end without it. An intro is still planned, however. It's literally one of the last pieces I'm about ready to lay down. Perhaps I could think of expanding my intro or reversing my earlier decision to scrap the outro. However, I also think this thread serves as a neat commentary piece. Although I may want to attach more to my actual piece, especially as I'm now fully committed to giving it its own thread. Yeah. Perhaps I just have tunnel vision here, but I want it to work reasonably well in the context of this site, or its slightly mercurial board software, first and foremost. I don't think, in the full-blown era of social media, smartphones, YouTube, etc, we have to be too academic on items like this. But facts and citations need to be correct and clearly laid out. In some ways, I wish I'd just posted it without warning and surprised everyone. It might be too built-up now. I can already see areas in my response where I could add more. But I do need to bring myself back to reality and seal it up now. Things can always be improved without limit, but there comes a point when you have to call it quits and let what you've already done escape from under you and speak on its own terms. Lots of TROS spoilers around right now. In fact, this is a strange time to post a 60,000 word prequel rebuttal (that's more or less where the word count is now), but I also like that timing -- obsessed with the prequels, and defending the prequels, right as the Sequel Trilogy is wrapping up. There's a part of me that wouldn't have it any other way. It seems almost like fate.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 16, 2019 20:25:59 GMT
It may not be in the EW hater review you're rebuking, but I think it's still important that you tackle this ludicrous fan theory (perhaps even misogynistic) of Padmé as the hopeless victim of a Jedi mind trick in AOTC. In this recent article the author declares not only has she "lost the will to live", for that's not sufficient slandering of ROTS, but that she's also died "of a broken heart".
Actually same thing was trotted out by this go-awful idea of a newspaper in Jan, 2018:
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Post by jppiper on Dec 16, 2019 23:02:40 GMT
i thought it was confirmed that she did die of a broken heart and back to ew for a sec just read the article on the last Jedi and the Idiot Writer had to take a shot at the Prequels by Saying Yoda's Scene in the film was the first great yoda sequence in 37 years Which is a load of Bullsh*t!
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 17, 2019 11:42:26 GMT
i thought it was confirmed that she did die of a broken heart Yes, by Lucas himself. It's a concept present in many tales, from Arthurian legends to Shakespeare. Probably what he was harkening back to.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 28, 2019 2:16:35 GMT
As far as I can see it, people only suggest broken heart because she happens to say "you're breaking my heart" when in anguish at Anakin - which is before he attacks her.
jppiper I didn't mean to pour scorn on this theory, or the lost the will to live one either (this is a better theory - it's what the medical droid declares). It's just that when a prequel reviewer cites them there's almost always a very bad intent behind it, aka slandering. And that bugs me.
emperorferus Would I be right in guessing this is your issue with Padmé's portrayal in ROTS?
Alexrd If you've got quotations of Lucas confirming this, please do share.
As for my own believes, I have a lot of sympathy for this one:
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 29, 2019 18:09:33 GMT
As far as I can see it, people only suggest broken heart because she happens to say "you're breaking my heart" when in anguish at Anakin - which is before he attacks her.
jppiper I didn't mean to pour scorn on this theory, or the lost the will to live one either (this is a better theory - it's what the medical droid declares). It's just that when a prequel reviewer cites them there's almost always a very bad intent behind it, aka slandering. And that bugs me. emperorferus Would I be right in guessing this is your issue with Padmé's portrayal in ROTS? Alexrd If you've got quotations of Lucas confirming this, please do share. Well, I think it's perfectly obvious from the movie alone. She lost the will to live. What made her lose the will to live? How Anakin broke her heart, as she had previously expressed. Hence why the droid can't explain it. Anakin's attack had no lasting physical effect on her nor did it affect her health. The droid confirms this too. As for sources, it's in The Making of Revenge of the Sith. The revised second draft, when that exchange is first established.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 29, 2019 21:19:05 GMT
Well, I think it's perfectly obvious from the movie alone. She lost the will to live. What made her lose the will to live? How Anakin broke her heart, as she had previously expressed. Hence why the droid can't explain it. Anakin's attack had no lasting physical effect on her nor did it affect her health. The droid confirms this too.
"You're breaking my heart" isn't literal. It's something Padmé saids to explain to sheer trauma she's experiencing by witnessing her husband become psychotic. The Force Choke may not be the ultimate cause of death, but it almost certainly had a dire effect on her health, and her head hitting off the stone pavement after being released, can not have been helpful either. I'm not inclined to fully trust the medical droid - they aren't sensitive to matters involving the Force, which is impossible to rule out here.
Second draft of the script? So it's not in the final screenplay then. That means it's no better than the discarded idea of Palpatine as Anakin's "father". One of the best things Lucasfilm have done this year is to debunk that popular dark fan theory. Yes, it was only after TROS's release that they did so, but I think it's still commendable. Maybe one day they'll tackle Padmé's death too. Of course, Lucas is the best authority on the matter.
I haven't read that making of book yet, beyond some passages on the internet. I'll see if I can get a second hand copy somewhere. Or I might listen back to the ROTS commentary for the scene.
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 29, 2019 21:50:39 GMT
"You're breaking my heart" isn't literal. It's something Padmé saids to explain to sheer trauma she's experiencing by witnessing her husband become psychotic. Nobody said that it's literal. It's a figure of speech. But everyone know how it feels like and what it means. Dying of a broken heart doesn't mean the organ in question is physically damaged. It's the anxiety and depression associated with it that leads to the deadly apathy. The Force Choke may not be the ultimate cause of death, but it almost certainly had a dire effect on her health, and her head hitting off the stone pavement after being released, can not have been helpful either. I'm not inclined to fully trust the medical droid - they aren't sensitive to matters involving the Force, which is impossible to rule out here. Any physical damage (caused by the Force or something else) would have been noticed by the droid, and as he explains "Medically, she's completely healthy." Second draft of the script? So it's not in the final screenplay then. It is. But it was introduced in the second draft. It's referring to the new (which ended up being final) dialogue from the droid: Personally, I don't see why so many find dying of a broken heart such big of an issue. It's all part of the fairy tale / Arthurian myth that is one of the influences of the series. Thematically and dramatically, it works.
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Post by jppiper on Jan 12, 2020 20:56:40 GMT
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Post by tonyg on Jan 12, 2020 22:08:11 GMT
Unfortunately, I cannot explain to someone that is wrong when this someone obviously doesn't pay attention to the movie he/she watches. I mean,these "authors at least should know this. When I criticize a movie (don't make me do this with the sequel trilogy, I really can) at least I criticize someting that is in the movie and don't try to make up something that is not or worse, ignore something that is there only because it doesn't fit in my ranting. Just one example with the end of the duel between Obi Wan and Darth Maul, where Obi Wan hangs on and was about to fall in the pit of the Naboo spaceport: "For no explicable reason, he [Darth Maul] just stands there while Obi-Wan hangs on for dear life. For no explicable reason? Have they watched the movie at all? Darth Maul tried to hit Obi Wan with his lightsaber but the position of Obi Wan was such that he couln't reach him (without falling). And that saved Obi Wan's life in that moment. Of course both knew (as the viewers also knew) that Obi Wan couldn't hang forever in such position and Maul was waiting for Obi Wan to fall. So Obi Wan was on the end of desperation when he noticed his master's lightsaber and he knew he has only one chance.
And no, this is not rocket science. Is simple and effective scene that can be understood at first watch. Obviously they couldn't even do that, After this I stop reading. Is not worthy if they do't pay attention to the movie they hate.
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Post by jppiper on Jan 12, 2020 22:33:59 GMT
tonyg what about their complaints about Anakin Destroying the control ship? How Padme Handled Anakin's confession of the Tuskan Massacre? and Palpatine taking out Three Jedi?
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Post by tonyg on Jan 12, 2020 22:48:20 GMT
tonyg what about their complaints about Anakin Destroying the control ship? How Padme Handled Anakin's confession of the Tuskan Massacre? and Palpatine taking out Three Jedi? When I said that I didn't read after this with Maul I wasn't joking. I mean, there are critics to PT that expose valid arguments like the pace is slow (for me is as it has to be but this is something that could be discussed) and so on but when the critics is based on something that is non-existant (like Maul watching Obi Wan for no reason) then is hopeless. They could even pretend that in Ep.3 Padme never went to Mustafar deliberately if this suits them.
But while I didn't read this dreadful article till the end let me guess what did they say how Padme handled Anakin's confession of the Tusken massacre: they said that she was indifferent, didn't they? Because indeed this is the next cliche of the anti PT ranting. And is not true for the same reason: Padme's expression when she first heard this said it all. THe only argument I could bring here is: people don't pretend that you have watched the movie when you didn't.
I didn't watch Ep. 9. However I could whine about bringing back Palpatine because this is a fact. I don't need to watch the movie to now it. But to know Padme's reaction in Ep.2: I have to watch at least this part to conclude something about it. Is simple.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jan 12, 2020 23:03:14 GMT
Like, uh, when are we gonna make our own podcast? I think it's important to make ourselves literally heard, rather than just read. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jan 13, 2020 0:06:39 GMT
Like, uh, when are we gonna make our own podcast? I think it's important to make ourselves literally heard, rather than just read. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!
You should start a separate thread for this matter - this one is solely for posting anti-prequel articles and quickly rebuking them.
Pack all your wonderful ideas and suggestions into it and we will get back to you with feedback.
I've been tempted to start a thread about podcast recommendations - as I have many to share - but after what Subtext Mining has recently said about not wanting to duplicate very similar discussions, it'll have to go into that "pro-prequels articles" one.
A thread about creating our own podcast warrants a new thread. Cryogenic and myself briefly discussed this idea in private before, so you'll certainly have our attention.
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Post by jppiper on Jan 13, 2020 0:16:49 GMT
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Post by emperorferus on Jan 13, 2020 0:34:52 GMT
From what I see, almost all rankings from movie sites (from critics/bloggers) automatically put all three prequels dead last (ROTS may not be, but often third from last). I can understand some having that opinion, but the way they all seem to have the same rankings is definitely a sign of a social stigma weighing on them, even with the release of the ST. www.vulture.com/2018/05/every-star-wars-movie-ranked-from-worst-to-best.htmlwww.google.com/amp/s/www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/gmp19457800/all-star-wars-movies-ranked/A few examples of many. ROTS, ROTJ, TFA, the spinoffs and TROS vary, but TLJ is invariably third behind ANH/TESB. I know these two have a special standing, and they are also my top two, but still.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jan 13, 2020 1:09:46 GMT
@archduke have you read the link i gave you from TV Tropes?
TV Tropes is just a bunch of know-it-alls, who think cataloguing common elements in film (or I guess screen drama in general), makes them some sort of intellectuals.
Ignore them. Few people pay any attention to their anonymous contributors.
I notice that the same page also has critiques of the sequels, so let's be careful not to ascribe it as a purely anti-PT hit job. If someone has read the whole things and feels differently, I'll be happy to listen.
Ranking Lists
emperorferus - I think we should give more time for these lists to come out. There was an interesting one on Collider Video over Christmas, voted on by their viewers, including the anthology movies, which went as follows:
1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Rogue One 6. The Force Awakens
7. The Last Jedi
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Solo
10. Attack of the Clones
Now the list itself wasn't interesting. What was was reaction - the squirming - on their panellist's faces when ROTS got to #4. These guys are largely OT fanboys-turned Disney Shills, and I sure got a kick out of their disappointment at seeing TLJ at #7.
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Post by jppiper on Jan 13, 2020 1:38:28 GMT
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Post by emperorferus on Jan 13, 2020 1:55:37 GMT
ArchdukeOfNabooWhile I don’t think all positive ST reviewers are “shills”, I do agree that there is a satisfaction at seeing a film that some people defend at all costs at the expense of the films that critics consider black sheep being moved down a peg. TLJ, surprisingly, seems to be more subject to protection than TFA in some circles. Ironic considering which film was more positively received initially (guilty!) and was largely given more of a pass than TLJ (also guilty). For reference, I rate TFA a 5/10, and think the films get progressively worse.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jan 13, 2020 14:13:34 GMT
I haven't read the article either, because we've all heard these recopied complaints ad nauseam for over 20 years. It sounds like just another cheap hit-piece to get the kind of people who actually take Plinkett videos seriously excited. But to add to what Tony said about Darth Maul; he stood there so he could revel in witnessing Kenobi fall into the shaft. He felt it was inevitable and by standing there to watch it, he was expressing an even deeper level of gloating, sadistic cruelty. A Jedi might in some cicrumstances, for example, help thier foe up once they were unarmed in such a situation. But not a Sith. When Maul swung his lightsaber against the rim of the shaft he was intimidating Kenobi; essentially saying "what now, punk?" Or basically, "I'd finish you now if I could reach you. But I'm just gonna wait and watch you fall." I don't know what the complainers are expecting, do they want Maul to jump down there after Obi-Wan and chop his hands off, make sure he lands on the little thingy with one foot, and jump back up? Do they want him to Force pull Kenobi's fingers apart? Oh, that would've been so badass! And not cheesy... I've never seen movies picked apart to thier tiniest atomic levels and scrutinized to death as the SW Prequel films have. And I don't know if we ever will. Hopefully someday all this scrutinizing will lead to something more productive on a larger scale. If he means, why did Maul stand there when Kenobi jumped up, grabbed the saber and cut him in half, well that might have some validity to it. But I mean, c'mon, in his arrogance, over-confidence, pride and arguably youth, Maul was sure the fight was finished. Like with Amidala, the Sith underestimated the resilience and resourcefulness of their youthful adversaries. Echoing RotJ. I don't think he saw much threat in Obi-Wan's mere jumping up. It was the sword he neglected to think about. The only half-joking comment I have for this scene is as always, something I don't see complainers mention: Obi-Wan's luck in that thing being there, and in his saying "in my experience there's no such thing as luck." I mean, yes, he's alluding to the Force there, but still, c'mon, there was a lot of luck in that case combined with Buck Rodgers-esque action sequencing.
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