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Post by Ingram on May 10, 2022 19:47:27 GMT
"Pyrogenic, you're confusing."
Cameron's a hand-talker, like I am.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 10, 2022 19:50:41 GMT
My point is, name a better example of an avatar. I'll wait. ELVIS. Anyway, this thread sure is heating up! |
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Post by smittysgelato on May 10, 2022 20:00:33 GMT
The thing about Avatar is that it takes a lot of familiar elements from more famous stories, so it feels cliche (Star Wars does do this too, but it has more compelling characters). The main character goes into cryo-sleep (just like John Carter in the cave, or Alice in Wonderland, or Dorothy when she hits her head during the tornado) and "wakes up" in a dream world. Hell, even my favorite romance movie, Roman Holiday, uses this idea of going to sleep at the beginning of the story, which frames the adventure as a dream. So it is very common in movies. Throw in some Matrix-esque elements with the Avatars and some Pochahontas and you've got yourself the basic template for Avatar. What I find really interesting about Avatar is the fact that all life is connected in a bio-"internet" web, the main interface being the tree of life. This is very Star Warsian which calls to mind Lucas' ecological thinking and of course, The Force itself.
Even Avatar's hard stance against imperialism is very Star Warsian. I'm suspicious of this myself because when it comes down to it, despite all of humanity's spiritual and religious pretensions, what human beings really care about is their material security. If a politician or government can't provide that, that's when people really lose their marbles. It has been that way for much of human history. Even ritual kingship provides evidence for this fact because the king is supposed to be the source of fertility for the land, and a leader is only worth so much as his fertility. So, I seriously question whether people would really want to do away with materialistic imperialism. I think a lot of people would regret losing the level of material wealth/security we have today, even if it means being kinder to the environment, etc.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 10, 2022 20:45:23 GMT
Hmmm. Not bad for my 1500th post up there. Anyway... The thing about Avatar is that it takes a lot of familiar elements from more famous stories, so it feels cliche (Star Wars does do this too, but it has more compelling characters). Exactly. The characters are pretty insipid. I'm sorry to James Cameron, but there really aren't that many memorable or interesting characters in his film oeuvre. And at this level of fantasy construction, you need decent ones. It isn't Kandinsky. It's a five-act dramatic structure: a story. But "Avatar" doesn't populate that story with anyone worth caring about. Plenty of throwbacks there, with the military/alien-world setting, to Cameron's "Aliens", too. Certainly, "Avatar" is a decent film. Handsome, even. I just couldn't get past the cliches or have that transcending, out-of-body experience other films have given me -- which, given the movie's title and premise, is pretty ironic, really. This is a good observation. In fact, it gives me pause and now makes me wonder if "Avatar" actually lit the fuse for Lucas developing a sequel trilogy and selling to Disney. While Lucas got there first with Felucia in ROTS, the fact he wanted to revisit this planet in the ST makes me think he may have been a little inspired by Cameron's movie and the stunning world of Pandora (as Cameron himself may have been by the imagery and technological boldness of the prequels). Of course, the timeline fits: "Avatar" becomes a sensation in 2010 and Lucas is sketching a sequel outline and talking to Bob Iger in 2011. It's interesting that the famous "Mortis" arc of "The Clone Wars" also appeared around this time. And Palpatine shoots a kind of "Force Tree of Life" into the sky on Exegol in "The Rise Of Skywalker". Maybe, then, "Avatar" is the bridge between the PT and the ST. I think I agree with you. Although, let's remember, Star Wars offers some nuance on the matter by celebrating the Edenic and material beauty of Naboo. That is: Naboo is both an idealised world, and actually, in the universe of the films, a physical place (i.e., something to marvel at). While Yoda does tell Luke that "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter", materialism is also celebrated via Han's attachment to the Millennium Falcon -- which is later shown to be a sort of enlightened materialism when Han, albeit with great worry, gives his ship over to Lando, its earlier owner, in service of the greater good. Materialism is also shown with Anakin's pride at building a podracer (which he uses successfully in the Boonta Eve race to win his freedom and secure the strangers the parts they need), and at the other end of the saga, we see the Ewok Paploo hijacking a speeder bike and having fun distracting the bad guys with it. I would argue that these examples are broadly positive and Lucas isn't saying that materialism is a bad thing. Just that we ought to be careful about relying too much on our material comforts and forgetting about the wider world. But yes, it's something we all struggle with. As Qui-Gon says to Anakin, the Jedi path is "a hard life". Getting people to even consider going without the niceties of the modern world, even for just a day, is a hard ask. It's the world we've created through our eager embrace of science and technology. Man has ever been curious and set himself apart from the animals hundreds of thousands of years ago by discovering fire (potentially as far back as a million years ago), and later, writing (5,000 to 10,000 years ago). It's interesting that Anakin, the guy who becomes a machine, is constantly associated with fire in the prequels; and when Luke burns the Vader suit at the end of the OT. Although this could be considered an egregious case of scientism, it's also possible that our science and technology, for all the destruction they've wrought, could also save the environment in the future. That said, I'm increasingly inclined to think it will be in the form of an elaborate digital simulation, not unlike The Matrix. It could even be the answer to Enrico Fermi's famous question: "Where are they?" (i.e., advanced aliens). They could all be living in simulations within black holes or in some other interdimensional space-time fabric. If humanity goes the same way, we could even usher in the Omega God, or bring about the Omega Point, as Pierre Teilhard de Chardin proposed. Hard to see where all this is going to go. |
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Post by Alexrd on May 10, 2022 20:52:29 GMT
"Pyrogenic, you're confusing." Not anymore, Pyro. It seems someone else took that position. |
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Post by smittysgelato on May 10, 2022 21:20:07 GMT
Going back to Felucia would have been AMAZING.
Yes, Lucas seems to embrace, in the movies atleast, a "hand-made materialism," but not so much an "assembly-line materialism."
In fact, whenever he talks about pleasure vs. joy, he uses getting your first car as an example of pleasure. He doesn't tell you not to enjoy that pleasure, but simply to let it go when it dissipates. And don't get me wrong, it isn't like I don't have a religious bone in my body. I just have a practical side. I don't think I'm a dualist. For example, if you eat the wrong things, it affects your mental/spiritual health. So you really don't want to screw up your material well-being.
Balance is a good thing. Lucas is good at warning us to remain vigilant that we do not become too greedy. But the problem is, how to identify the line between necessity and greed? Pleasure is an obvious clue, of course. The trick is, good luck getting everyone to agree where the line is located. For me, to keep my own materialism from getting out of hand, I don't buy the latest computer, cellphone, TV's, or Playstations every year. I think once every 10 years is good enough.
It isn't even necessarily bad to be masters of the Earth. In Paradise Lost Book 4, Adam and Eve are subservient to only one thing, God and his sanction against eating from the tree of knowledge. Like Satan, they are #2. But like Satan and Anakin, when you're #2, it is REALLY easy to start thinking: "Well if I am number 2, I am only one step away from being number 1. Why can't I be number 1? That'd be pretty nice! Then I can make everything exactly the way I want it to be!"
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Post by Cryogenic on May 10, 2022 21:44:32 GMT
Going back to Felucia would have been AMAZING. Wouldn't it? Lucas clearly had some big things in mind for the ST. I was going to bring that very example up. It's very vaguely there in the form of my mentioning other racing machines in Star Wars and then the "hard life" of a Jedi. I think, in a way, this is why Lucas has previously labelled himself a Buddhist-Methodist. He's a bit of a dreamer, or an idealist, but also quite hard-nosed and practical, too. It doesn't do much good to go to extremes in life. Well, I suppose everyone must weigh those extremes for themselves, and each develop their own sense of balance. Hard to do, of course. But if life offered no challenge, where would the fun be? Ha! I tell myself I do something similar in not rushing out to buy the latest phone every year. I don't own a car (I can't even drive). My computer is six years old and counting (and cheap when I bought it). Our TV at home comes from my grandfather, who passed away in 2018 and had already owned it a few years at that point. My computer desk is from Freecycle. My cameras (I enjoy photography) are second-hand. So are some of my books. I didn't even change my glasses for over ten years. Helps that I'm slow and lazy. Consumerism is wearying. But it would also be delusional to say we're not wasteful and destructive. In fact, a lot more of human existence seems to exist in waste and destructiveness than it does in productive, creative pursuits. Still, if you buy nice, shiny things a little less often, I think you appreciate the new acquisitions more. I was also going to invoke the Tree of Knowledge, but you've done it for me, and with far greater insight. Damn, doesn't that sum human beings up? The insatiable greed, the self-serving reasoning, and the desire to be No. 1! How clever of you to link it to Anakin's plea to Padme in ROTS! Their last scene together. In hell. How apt. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 10, 2022 22:47:01 GMT
You became defensive when I called out the manbaby prequel bashers for their dislike of the prequels romantic plot, that's what happened. Why would that be?
It's because your priorities are were the prequel-hating "Fandom Menace". That's the difference between us. I couldn't care less how much they dislike the sequels, what I care about is where they were during the Lucas era, and it's pretty obvious many of them were once Lucas bashers during the RLM years. All they've done is swapped out one boogeyman for another.
I don't forgive these assholes. You hang around with them on other blogs.
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Post by Ingram on May 11, 2022 7:24:06 GMT
Pyro argues the film's central, titular conceit, direct and distilled, as being its own reward. I wonder, then, would it not have been better served as some kind of virtual theme park attraction that would eventually follow anyways? Star Tours was a 5-minute simulation ride that tact an easy premise adjacently onto events from Episode VI. I could in turn see Cameron's Pandora world exposited satisfactorily during the pretour duration before attendees embarked on the main experience. Or perhaps a console game incarnation would've been an even simpler answer, affording players just enough of a familiar storyline necessary to facilitate yet a similar kind of interactive experience.
Cameron chose multiplex cinema instead, and with a conventional three-act structure narrative moreover. Okay, cool. But no lofty conceit is immune to commonplace screenwriting. My issue with all the overlapping genre tropes that complete the movie isn't that they merely exist; formula works, that's why they call it formula. My issue is that every trope -- analogous storied premise, character type, conflict etc. -- is played out dramatically only to the most obvious conclusions. Nothing is elevated, Cameron never charts a course off the beaten paths. The reason for this might be genuine, in that he didn't want to overwhelm audiences by dividing up their focus on a conceptual level, challenging them with an usurped planetery frontiersmen adventure in addition to the already all-consuming notion of alien techno-avatarism. If that's the case then it's a dare I would have rather he taken.
Cameron's admonishment of Western Colonialism leaves no room for audiences to fill in the blanks. One problem isn't that he asks us to take it seriously as a storytelling blueprint for dramatic devices, but that he asks us to take it literally as poignant commentary and thus something dramatic by default. Sorry, Jimbo, but the history of Western expansion among the indigenous isn't that simple. Not even chapter headings like Little Big Horn or the atrocity at Wounded Knee were ever that simple. Hell, not even the prose of JF Cooper's Leatherstocking Tales were as one-note in their depictions as that which was translated from script to screen for Avatar.
The other interlacing problem is tone. Joe Dante's riff on consumerism and stateside industry with Gremlins was mischievous; Lucas maintained a quotient of absurdity with his forest moon teddy bear tribes and toyetic Gungan city. But Cameron eschews satire and pulp. He doesn't even have the nightmare-thriller parameters that kept his xenomorph analogies from overstepping their boundaries into sanctimony. With Pandora and her Na'vi children, Cameron ops solely for NatGeo cred. Admirable, in a way, just not particularly fun, at least not when said blue savages are impossibly noble and their 'Murican invaders have all the motivational depth of glorified high-school movie bullies.
But like I said in the previous post, the story still functions with economy and at times paints a scene with exactitude. It's in the setups, the 1st act, where Avatar has some of my favorite touches. An effectively streamlined moment in the film is with the introduction of Colonel Quaritch. Here the thematic backdrop remains where it should, leaving up front to stand on its own strong impressions of cultural-imperialist terra forming via simple audiovisual textures. The gunmetal surfaces, the vapor-white lighting, the little pixelated camo designs, the head scars on Quaritch matching the window vent background; the window vent a clear-but-not obnoxious symbol of the stars 'n' stripes, now devoid of their color, and Horner's orchestra reduced to precision militarized synth pulses. Quaritch himself, boots first, cutting the legs out from everyone's carry-on bravado, talkin' Kansas and Jujubes with a thick Missourian.
And I really dig a following exchange between the Colonel and Jake, and where it's worth noting that Stephen Lang is arguably the movie's one source of no-fucks-given swagger. This scene does everything. It preempts less-inspired conclusions of the movie into a kind of superior dramatic through-line all its own, narrowed down to ellipses. It's at once the summation of humankind on Pandora -- the deep focus immersiveness of a mecha-factory staffed with otherwise hardworking Joes & Janes -- along with the idea of a humbled grunt loyal to his commander and vice versa that we know will lead to estrangement; both characters are still endearing here in their narrative potential.
Avatar is an example of major contrast: core faults in sci-fi parables alongside some robust cinematic brandish. Even all that shit aside, it's still a pretty kickass action movie in its final act. If Cameron maintains with next December's sequel his convictions and personal standards in FX cinema as a communal experience while evolving a storyline metrically less pedestrian then it will without question prove better than the original.
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Post by Alexrd on May 11, 2022 9:08:16 GMT
You became defensive when I called out the manbaby prequel bashers for their dislike of the prequels romantic plot, that's what happened. Why would that be? No, I didn't. We were discussing Titanic, remember? Then you made ridiculous and nonsensical assumptions and accusations out of nowhere. It's because your priorities are were the prequel-hating "Fandom Menace". That's the difference between us. I couldn't care less how much they dislike the sequels, what I care about is where they were during the Lucas era, and it's pretty obvious many of them were once Lucas bashers during the RLM years. All they've done is swapped out one boogeyman for another. I don't forgive these assholes. You hang around with them on other blogs. Get a grip. You're making less sense with each post. |
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Post by Pyrogenic on May 11, 2022 13:38:39 GMT
Ingram almost touched on this briefly, but when all these predominantly narrative categories of criticism of Avatar are reapplied to something like Return of the Jedi, the relativistic nature of the “problems” really start manifesting. I’m thinking about Ewoks vs. Stormtroopers as confirmed, intentional Vietnam War allegory and how ridiculously egregious it is to criticize Avatar’s take on colonialism when we’re seemingly giving a free pass to that sort of crappy oversimplification in Star Wars. I think it can all be rationalized aesthetically in both cases - the double standard is what bothers me. Avatar is actually…good compared to quite a bit of really low-brow, low-ambition stuff out there, right? Not to put words in anyone’s mouths, but Avatar isn’t really your enemy. I feel like we’re sometimes stuck in an anomalous conceptual zone where we’re forgetting to compare things that are easily comparable in order to coax out the echoes. I also think Avatar consistently operates at the level of the previous clip scene-by-scene and, like Star Wars, is correctly emphasizing technological innovation and AV aesthetics over some other things. I wish we could all just put on our art appreciation hats for once.
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Post by Alexrd on May 11, 2022 14:46:41 GMT
Well, Return of the Jedi isn't just about Ewoks vs Stormtroopers, and even if it was, the themes aren't the same, or as simplistic and cliché as Avatar's. Avatar's innovation and appeal is the original setting. But even that didn't do much for me, personally.
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Post by Pyrogenic on May 11, 2022 16:46:47 GMT
I think we all need to take a course on the concept of a Gestalt.
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Post by Ingram on May 11, 2022 21:00:02 GMT
Pyro has a mother's love for Villeneuve's Dune and Blade Runner 2049, Avatar, [see what I did here?] The Last Airbender and The Rise of Skywalker. Pyro is a very loving person full of warmth and embrace. I however have a father's cold expedience.
Ranking the above, worst to best: 5. The Rise of Skywalker 4. Dune 3. 2049 2. The Last Airbender 1. Avatar |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 11, 2022 21:24:08 GMT
Pyro has a mother's love for Villeneuve's Dune and Blade Runner 2049, Avatar, [see what I did here?] The Last Airbender and The Rise of Skywalker. Pyro is a very loving person full of warmth and embrace. I however have a father's cold expedience.
Ranking the above, worst to best:
5. The Rise of Skywalker 4. Dune 3. 2049 2. The Last Airbender 1. Avatar In fairness... Pyro's probably going to believe he's found himself a borderline convert! "The Last Airbender" and "Avatar" in the least-worst positions! |
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Post by Ingram on May 11, 2022 21:39:12 GMT
Pyro has a mother's love for Villeneuve's Dune and Blade Runner 2049, Avatar, [see what I did here?] The Last Airbender and The Rise of Skywalker. Pyro is a very loving person full of warmth and embrace. I however have a father's cold expedience.
Ranking the above, worst to best:
5. The Rise of Skywalker 4. Dune 3. 2049 2. The Last Airbender 1. Avatar In fairness... Pyro's probably going to believe he's found himself a borderline convert! "The Last Airbender" and "Avatar" in the least-worst positions! lol-no. Not a convert. I'm just the dutiful dad.
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Post by smittysgelato on May 11, 2022 21:44:31 GMT
I'm a huge fan of the Avatar: The Last Airbender TV series, so I HATED the live-action movie. I'd love to hear Pyro's defense because if anyone can rescue that movie for me it would be him.
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Post by Pyrogenic on May 12, 2022 1:36:55 GMT
In fairness... Pyro's probably going to believe he's found himself a borderline convert! "The Last Airbender" and "Avatar" in the least-worst positions! lol-no. Not a convert. I'm just the dutiful dad.
Ooh, Pyro’s hot. Wait, that’s me! *Blows out Airbender candles With puckered Lips* “The secret to appreciating these is to watch them until you like them.” |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 12, 2022 2:37:08 GMT
“The secret to appreciating these is to watch them until you like them.” Well, I guess that's us all told! |
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Post by Subtext Mining on May 12, 2022 16:21:18 GMT
I loved the live action Avatar: The Last Airbender movie, but that might be because I never saw or knew anything about the cartoon.
(Pyro suggested it to me).
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